Google Blogoscoped

Forum

Jimmy Wales Not to Bow Down to Chinese Authorities?  (View post)

Mathias Schindler [PersonRank 10]

Monday, August 6, 2007
12 years ago5,598 views

Greetings from Tainan, China. This was my second Wikimania conference (I skipped 2006 in Boston) and I am totally impressed. Our "network problems" in mainland China were often discussed.

Actually, even if Wikimedia Foundation decided to start censoring Wikipedia content in order to please whoever needs to be pleased, it wouldn't work. Running a wiki is someting fundamentally opposed to this kind of control. In any case, there are lots and lots of ad-hoc features in MediaWiki/Wikipedia to deal with vandalism, slander and libel and copyright violations. But essentially they rely on a rough consensus among the users about what is vandalism, what is slander and what is a copyright violation. A country which would forbid mentioning the age of a senior politician for reasons of state security would not be able to gain support for this point of view in Wikipedia.

Baidu Baike, the web site run from mainland China, is essentially not a wiki.

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

Why did in this way?

To change a country for a website is crazy.

For Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales is so carefree. According to China law, all the content in chinese must obey China law, or GFW wil block the content. We can not visit Wikipedia in chinese anymore. Or should use proxy, Tor ect.

Do not sue Google, at least, Chinese still can use most Google service. Better than none.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

> To change a country for a website is crazy.

To change a country for human rights is less crazy though. As is a website owner who believes in human rights and is willing to sacrifice short-term traffic for always respecting human rights. But Jimmy Wales wasn't cited here to have said that China should change: he said Wikipedia won't change. There's quite a bit of difference...

Mathias Schindler [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

The question whether the People's Republic of China has any right how to thread its citizens can be answered differently and "Interference with internal affairs" is a phrase that can be used for more than just ignoring any thoughtful advise.

At a certain point in time, it is up to the citizens of China to decide how their society should be designed and how they would like to implement documents like the UN declaration of Human rights, especially article 19:

<blockquote>
Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
</blockquote>

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

[put at-character here]Philipp Lenssen
Wikipedia won't change, China GOV won't change too. Who gain? Nobaody. Who lost? Wikipedia and Chinese people. Jimmy Wales just said he will not to Bow Down to Chinese Authorities, and kill the wants from 13 hundred millions of Chinese people.

Everyone should face this fact. How carefree Jimmy is? Yes, Jimmy build Wikipedia, he has freedom. Freedom? Or a Joke.

Let me tell my understanding, What is despotism? The freedom out of control is the despotism.

Jimmy also treated him as a king like china GOV. Maybe he did not noticed it.

[put at-character here]Mathias Schindler:
Freedom is limited. Once your freedom will hurt the freedom that belong to others. This freedom is evil. Repeated, The no limited freedom is the despotism.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

> Wikipedia won't change, China GOV won't
> change too. Who gain?

I believe China will change. Google actually said they believe the same; in fact, they rationalized their self-censorship decision by saying that yes, a set of websites – not a single website, but many taken together, including Google – "will effectively contribute to openness and prosperity in the world."* But yes, a single website on its own holds less power than if a set of sites getting together to pull in the same direction; imagine Yahoo, MSN, Google and Cisco would get together to move in the same political direction for instance. This is much more effective than one company undermining the other. E.g. Yahoo and MSN undermined the Google non-censorship decision the company held pre-2004 by delivering self-censored search engines; now Google et al undermine Jimmy Wales' non-censorship stance.

* googleblog.blogspot.com/2006/0 ...

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

[put at-character here]Philipp Lenssen

I means Jimmy said he will not change, and the speeching place was Taiwan, everyone should know Wilipedia future in China. Even it will change later, his way still hard until say sorry.
.........................................

My openion cited from a German philosopher , George Wilhelm Friedrich:

Freedom – Despotism
Law – Revenge
Democracy – Killing

Many, from his book, I begin to know in this world, nothing is Good, and Nothing is bad. The world is like my examination reports.

In China, 60 scores is the least score for pass. Once I joined a physics competition, And I get 59 scores. But, this time. I am the TOP 1 in my city.

Jimmy want 60 scores, he can not accept 59 scores, So, he did not bow down for 1 score and got a Big Zero.
.........................................
I wish Google can do a Wikipedia mirror in China. With censorship. If Jimmy still need his 1 score.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

Google in China currently self-censors millions of pages in web search, and they censor books results, satellite imagery, the cache feature, and Google News sources. What's do you think is their score? 40? 45?

> Freedom – Despotism
> Law – Revenge
> Democracy – Killing

Sounds like the line from another book: "War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength".

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

>What's do you think is their score? 40? 45?

99 For gmail. 59 For websearch and Imagesearch, 0 for cache, 59 for Google news. 30 for Book search. 0 for Base and Product search(Who did this? Base and Product search does not related with politics)

>Sounds like the line from another book

Long long ago, revenge unruled, many people did big blood only because small matters. And other people can not revenge any more, cause their are week.......

Law born from Revenge. Law is ruled revenge. Unruled revenge is not law. Gangdom has ruled revenge too. Just so blood, it is cultural relic that still remain in current socities.

John Calvin [PersonRank 0]

12 years ago #

I have difficulty understanding some of Hong Xiaowan's points, and I flat-out disagree with others, but I do appreciate the concept of compromise that he seems to be endorsing.

That said, I think that Mathias Schindler's original comment is valid in insinuating that compromise is technically impossible for Wikipedia to accomplish due to the intrinsic nature of a wiki. To censor Wikipedia is to render it wiki-less.

So, no, Jimmy Wales is certainly not carefree. He is instead essentially between a rock and a hard place, because unlike the giant search engines, he does not have the luxury of compromise.

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

[put at-character here]John Calvin
>To censor Wikipedia is to render it wiki-less.

I do agree with you and all. Who like to bow down? Jimmy is not a carefree man, but his decision bring a carefree result.

Just face the fact. Simply, how to let all 13 hundred million Chinese can visit directly. Many of them did not know how to use proxy and tor. Waiting the CGOV change, or censor.

Wiki-less better than Wiki-none.

For now, censorship is not bow down, it is a technique and stratagem.

If can not get the target, we can near the target. I hope Jimmy will change his mind. His decision can change China.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

> His decision can change China.

His decision can also dramatically change Wikipedia. Why? Because Wikipedia works on karma; if the site has good karma, people will be more happy to help the project, to edit along, and so on. Anything that can destroy this karma can, in the long term, lead to more selfish editing, more spam, and less people who like to help out for free (Wikipedia's decision to nofollow outgoing links was already a bad move in this regards). I'm sure karma is part of the reason why Wikipedia so far doesn't have any ads.

Mathias Schindler [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

There are many scenarios which might be working without "one side" (I hate it to see it that way) having to change. If there was a company offering a live mirror of the Chinese language (actually, there are several different language editions beside zh.wikipedia.org) without "sensitive" topics at (for example) www.neutered-chinese-wikipedia.com.cn, with GFDL compliance and sort-of-editable features, I think the Wikimedia Foundation would simply "accept" it.

So until the Chinese authorities start to consider an article about Knut, the Berlin polar bear to be subversive and "unhealthy", Chinese native speakers could enjoy the information presented about this fish- and tourist-eating little white monster.

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

[put at-character here]Philipp Lenssen

>Wikipedia works on karma

Yes, I believe karma. I think can use a flexible way like Google, only censorship at China and some countries.

And, I think, cause contributor offerd the content, Wikipedia should back the link for dofollow. And, I think, Money is not evil, put Ads and share the money to the contributores is very good. Fair.

Current Wilipedia, a little unfair. And adamancy, boyish.

[put at-character here]Mathias Schindler

I have tried a copy for chinese Wikipedia. But I can not supply censorship, so, banned. I tired of change IP again and again. I have to give up this project.

Anyway, keep Wikipedia nature better. This is really a complex topic. Now I thinking of berlin polar bear(also famous in China), if keep Knut as nature......

/pd [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

Interesting thread here .. one which sounds right into the golden projects!! :)-

I think I see where Hong is going with his thought process.. I tend to agree with him.. let the wiki be sanctioned to content based on their China Laws... wiki's are about sharing knowledge.opinions and info can carefully be crafted into them.

Let the chinese figure what is best for them.. they have done it for centuries on end.. Who are we to tell them and their .gov what is good or bad ??

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

[put at-character here]/pd

Thank you.

For sensitive information, I did not need newspaper, internet, TV in China. My wife, my female friends will tell me. Including the detailes they imagined. Also, we did know how to find truth inside the words. We get more knowledge, we can find more truth.

Censorship can buy silence, but the truth can't be washed away. We all knew the truth that someone is afraid of. So censorship will not change Wilipedia. These censored items are listed in our hearts.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

> Let the chinese figure what is best for them.. they have
> done it for centuries on end.. Who are we to tell them
> and their .gov what is good or bad ??

A lot of what Chinese think is best for them has actually brutally been suppressed in the past. Even Xiaowan can't run websites the way he would wish to run them (see above)! Xiaowan might want to share more information on how he runs Google.blogoscoped.cn and what compromises he's making for it that he wishes he wouldn't have to...

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

[put at-character here]Philipp Lenssen

GFW is an auto system. If the sensitive keyword appeared to0 often at a website, the IP of this website will be blocked. And you have to change IP, later, banned again, then GFW will auto block the domain. That means, if keep put sensitive on Google.Blogoscoped.cn. "Blogoscoped" may become a sensitive keywords too. So, this blog in english maybe blocked auto too.

So, we select this way. For sensitive post, we translated in multi blogs, and be linked from Google.Blogoscoped.cn. GFW will not care a blog only have one or two sensitive posts.

And, cause many trackbacks and comments have sensitive keywords. We have to close the comment, and ask the visitores comment on their blogs, just like Google Official Blog did, so, sensitive comment will be filtered by Google Blogsearch. I am developing a better comments system.

In fact, Jimmy selected the fully bow down. To judge a way right or wrong, we can simply check the result. We must change the way based on the entironment.

James Xuan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

"To change a country for human rights is less crazy though"

That should be what Philipp is remembered for. Its the best thing he ever said

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

In fact, USA can change China history at 1945. At that time. Their were two leaders in China, one is Jiang and another is Mao. Mao was weak. And Jiang's army was big. Mao tried to make China in USA politics structure. But Jiang did not agree. And USA selected a stronger one. So, the war broke out.

At last, 1949, Mao win.

If USA tried to keep balance, and also support Mao to prevent War, China today should be different. China can use 15 to 20 years to make the Mao's army and Jiang's Army belong to China. Just like US army belong to USA.

So China road was the must way.

History gone. Nobady can change. Now China is trying to have a small step and a small step. Try to prevent chaos when comes to USA politics structure. Everyone know USA politics structure is the best, China Gov also know. Now, China economy structure will use full USA structure. And for politics, already use many elements from USA structure. China GOV just afraid of out of control.

What is the socialism for China? This only exist for name. China always use pragmatism. USA best, copy USA.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

Support Mao to prevent war? Mao already received great support from Stalin, which caused terrible pain (and millions of deaths) to the Chinese population because China returned the favor with scarce local agrar resources. Mao was also responsible for leading the communist revolution which again brought a lot of pain to Chinese.

If it wasn't censored in your country (I guess it is), I'd be curious what you'd think of this book.
amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Chan ...

> History gone.

History isn't gone until it's faced. I can understand when Chinese are tired of revolutions, because there was too much blood loss in the past, but if you want to build a solid future you need to face the past, "step by step", as you say. China isn't the only country that didn't face its past, of course. There are many countries which don't face their history.

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

USA gave up Mao, Mao had to select Russia. Anyway, war was too dangerous for Mao at that time. If can get the position via negotiate, why via war. At that time, Jiang was so strong.

After Jiang stayed at Taiwan, Mao never fighted Taiwan at big mode. He returned the Jiang's soldiers to Jiang via Korea war(That will make him feel safe more),

China already said that “great culture revolution” was wrong, also for “three counterrevolution", "five counterrevolution", "great 58 lunge” ect.

The communist revolution was just a tool for Mao, He need friends, if he not died, China will also open her gate, cause USA open her gate to China at 1972(or 1973, I did not remember clearly).

Before this time, Jiang keeping to fight Mao, Jiang's policy successed, he made Mao keeping the War mode. I think, Mao also tired of revolutions, but he have to select solutions to go. To prevent big chaos.

History gone, China have to face the problems today, and towards the future.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

> China already said that “great culture revolution” was
> wrong, also for “three counterrevolution", "five
> counterrevolution", "great 58 lunge” ect.

Actually, the Chinese pre-celebrations for the Olympics were held under a portrait of Mao just this week:
africa.reuters.com/sport/news/ ...

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

China Official openion for mao is "70% right, 30% wrong",

Although he made some mistakes. Face the mistakes, also need to face his great.

He was a lucky militarist, everybody, including Stalin, did not believe Mao will win. Mao treated people very well, including Jiang's people. He win the people's heart. Jiang killed too many people before, including Mao's people(named white terror).

Mao treated his enemy as friend, he was really great. No matter real or fake. Mao win many battles, the price was dead none, the profit was the free weapons and veterans. The surrendered soldiers have these selections, go home, fight for Mao, or still fight for Jiang. The army that
took the president office was belong to Jiang before.

But, if Mao's army loss, Jiang's policy only two, death or surrendered. And treated surendered very bad.

Can you imagine? A small group that only have 15 soldiers, lost the way, and entered a wrong city that still belong Jiang. Jiang's army surrendered. 15 win 6000.

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

Some Soldiers joined Jiang's army just for surrendered, cause Mao will give them money for back home or back to Jiang's army. Then they try to joined another Jiang's army and earn the money again.

Before every battle, Mao liked to disclose at Newspaper which City will be attacked. This equal to told Jiang's army to prepare to surrender.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

> Mao treated people very well

You really *should* give this book a try. I'm really curious what you would say. According to the book Mao *enjoyed* people being tortured (and was responsible for a lot of torture). He did *not* care when millions of peasants were famishing to death (again, during his responsibility). He did *not* treat people well. Not even his *own* wife, or his *own* children.

amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Chan ...

> Mao win many battle

Yes, agreed. He was extremely smart, and had incredible political skills.

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

>According to the book Mao *enjoyed* people being tortured (and was responsible for a lot of torture).

Instead, Mao did not like gun, or blood, he always tried to win the battle with the negotiation although he can easy win. Sometimes, he also can not control everything, just like he can not persuade USA to support him. Anyway, he did not like to see the people being tortured.

>He did *not* care when millions of peasants were famishing to death (again, during his responsibility).

That was from 1960 to 1963, after 1958 "great 58 lunge", "great 58 lunge" used nearly all food, and can not produce new food on time. That was his mistake. He did care, he reduceed his food also, and got heavy sick. He worried about the people, also worried about the China future.

>He did *not* treat people well. Not even his *own* wife, or his *own* children.

In fact, his wife and his children stayed at Jiang's field. If Jiang was a china knight, should treat his wife and children well. Jiang also did wrong. He should treat his enemy and his enemy's family as friend, this was basic china old moral.

How could Mao do at that time, to save his wife and children by himself, no, Jiang will kill Mao also.

Jiang lost China Mainland only because he was not a clever politician. And did not care the common morality and justice that all chinese dreamed.

Instead, Jiang's old home kept very well, and Mao treated Jiang's family left at Mainland very well.

But the way, Jiang was also a great leader, he was 2nd leader of new China. 1st was Sun Zhongshan. He already winner. If Jiang not broke the China civil war, and accept Mao's items. He will not lost Mainland.

At that time, Mao just want positions for him and his fellows. Mao worried about their safe, so will keep army for 15 to 20 years, At that time, Mao suggested USA politics stucture. At that politics stucture, with support from USA, and Russia, Mao can keep their safe. And did not need to care about the food, money he need.

So, I said, communism just a tool for Mao. If USA supported Mao, Mao will use democracy as his tool.

"To be or not to be, this is a question!"

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

Xiaowan, it turns out we have a completely different set of information on Mao. If you read the book, you will find hundreds over hundreds of pages detailing Mao's ways through memos, eye witness reports, diary entries, Russian intelligence, Chinese intelligence, etc. etc. Read the book to dismiss these accusations, though you might risk a lot trying to get this book, as that's dangerous for you, which is a real pity, that you are not allowed to read what you wish to. One thing Mao was very good at, after all: setting up propaganda shielding the true nature of his person. It is still functioning today, decades after his death.

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

>memos, eye witness reports, diary entries, Russian intelligence, Chinese intelligence

In fact, my imformation not only comes from China Official Opinion. There were many old newspapers locked at my university. Also, I saw many secret documents that was forbidden. I used my way to find them and read.

In my eyes, Mao was very smart, if he really did some bad listed on the documents, nobody can know. Cause if he was that bad, anybody who know the secret will be killed or had important position that to bring these secrets to the end of their life(important officials left Mao means die, Commons can not have the secrets). So, these documents were all fake.

According to USA law, no attestation, no crime. Fake attestation is the attestation for the faker's crime.

>setting up propaganda shielding the true nature of his person

Yes, but God also can make mistake. Mao just a person.

I agree he was very smart at politics, war(also his politics extended, make China Civil War not so blood), he was China Mars, a great war artist. He was the greatest King(I agree to you, he was a king, but lastest King) in the China history, he was the only King who win China by politics, other kings just knew killing and killing. We all respected him at this.

The result of “great culture revolution” was, all chinese never believe any King at all. And these revolution make almost all chinese tired of revolution(Still some like).

He understood that communism was not fit for China, but for political reason, he began to plan the opening economy from 1971 not from 1949.
......

Those above are only my personal opinions, some openions also forbidden in China. You need not believe my opinions.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

> In fact, my imformation not only comes from China Official Opinion.
> There were many old newspapers locked at my university.

No newspaper of the time understood was Mao was doing – he was that good at hiding it.

> So, these documents were all fake.

Which documents do you think were fake, all the ones cited in the book I referenced?

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

Newspapers before 1949, Mao wrote a article to admire USA democracy, admire USA politics structure. This article was forbidden after 1950.

Documents from Jiang's Gov left, many, I think just surrendered Mao's person tried to enjoy Jiang. Mao "was that good at hiding", where was the real.

We used to try find the logical mistakes in these documents, and try to select a perfect one. These were fakes, but good movie play book. Serious Joke.

Document is not fake, content is fake.

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

Topic goes so far. Philipp, can you open a Vote for Censorship Wikipedia in Chinese?

Hong Xiaowan [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

I compared Baidu Baike and Wikipedia Chinese version, found many items are the same. Even the mistake is the same.

But Baidu does not put any advertisement on it. But I think Baidu should say this informations are from Wilipedia Chinese.

Andy [PersonRank 0]

12 years ago #

Any of you especially this Hong Xiaowan, has basic respects to those Chinese living outside mainland China? Those living in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and other countries?

Chinese Communism Party always tried to mix up China, PRC, Chinese, Government, Mainland China and CCP altogether, and unfortunately with great success.

Will those Chinese outside mainland China be forced to read censored content?

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

12 years ago #

> Will those Chinese outside mainland China be forced
> to read censored content?

No. The Chinese self-censorship only (from what we know) applies to Google.cn. The following are uncensored AFAIK:

www.google.com.tw
www.google.com.hk
www.google.com.sg
www.google.com/intl/zh-CN

*However*, you will in so far be forced to read censored content as you browse and read any website with a .cn extension. Because that blogger or web author you might be interested in is censored.

Furthermore, because of how Google evaluates backlinks for ranking, any country-wide censorship also has the potential to lower the rankings of material censored in one country in all other countries. As a simplified example, take two countries A-Land and B-Land. In both lands the search engines look only at backlinks for rankings. If A-Land considers X to be illegal, then only B-Land will be linking to X (if A-Land and B-Land citizens fully oblige the law). That means that any search query in B-Land for X, even though X is allowed in B-Land, will now have its ranks lowered by 50%. That's skewed enough already, but it doesn't stop there. Because of the nature of how people use search engines to find new content to link to, less and less people in B-Land will now be linking to X as well, potentially further lowering its rankings over time.

However, let's not forget that citizens from B-Land might inform citizens from A-Land of the missing content, trying to escalate the situation. This in turn has potential to increase the rankings of X in B-Land (and glimpses of X might appear in emails and such posted towards A-Land).

This thread is locked as it's old... but you can create a new thread in the forum. 

Forum home

Advertisement

 
Blog  |  Forum     more >> Archive | Feed | Google's blogs | About
Advertisement

 

This site unofficially covers Google™ and more with some rights reserved. Join our forum!