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The Removed Google Groups Posts  (View post)

shellehs [PersonRank 5]

Thursday, June 15, 2006
16 years ago4,169 views

which govt will b the next one to censor ?

Eric [PersonRank 0]

16 years ago #

"Why does the German gov’t feel the need to hide lies instead of exposing them as what they are?"

Are you denying the holocaust ?

hotjug [PersonRank 1]

16 years ago #

Guys, we have to understand two things:

1) this is the legislation of Germany and they are at will to act as appropriate. Obviously as g wants to do business there, they have to comply. Sadly, the case is similar to China but at least the rules are set and followed;

2) the background is that if there is one nation on Earth that has a reason to be overly sensitive about this issue then it is Germany. Lets understand them.

There are other countries in Europe where denial of holocaust is a crime. Recently one of the most renowned 'denialist' was arrested in Austria after being convicted a long time ago but not in reach to the Austrian authorities.

And there are other countries (or even US states) with some really weird regulations, but this is the globalized 21st century world we live in.
Of course – healthy criticism is appropriate, because I strongly believe that "doubt is the mother of reason".

Roger Browne [PersonRank 10]

16 years ago #

I see the footer about the removed messages, and I'm in the UK.

Maybe Google doesn't currently have a way to remove Google Groups messages from certain countries only.

SCJM [PersonRank 10]

16 years ago #

Are you a German denying holocaust denial?

Seth Finkelstein [PersonRank 10]

16 years ago #

The footer about the removed messages is visibile to me, and I'm in the US.

Note the messages messages are removed for me also in the US.

I got a copy of the messages from another Usenet server in the US, so as to be able to compare with Google's version.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

16 years ago #

> Are you denying the holocaust ?

Eric, you got it exactly wrong. The post in question was denying the holocaust, so I consider the post a lie. Therefore, I think the post should be exposed as what is is (a lie) instead of hiding it. Expose can be defined as "lay open to danger or harm" or to "reveal the guilt or wrongdoing of" or "to be subjected to an action"* (e.g. a counter-argument). Am I advocating Hitler's "Mein Kampf" to be available in libraries as historical artefact? Yes. Do I advocate Hitler's opinion? No! Everyone with reason can see the blatant insanity and evilness in the book – there's no need to hide this book.


Eric [PersonRank 0]

16 years ago #

Thank you for your reply Philip,
I understand your point of view although I personally
believe that ANY documents that try to poisen
peoples mind regarding any race or religon
should be outlawed around the world because of two
1) All man are equal, no matter race, color or religon.
2) There are those who will give in to such propaganda
because of their difficult situation or because their are
week minded.

That is the only reason I believe such matirial SHOULD
be abolished around the world.
It never ends, first it was against the Jews, then the Black folk,
Then Asian.

People need to stop being racist and propaganda does not help.

I do however respect your opinion regarding free press.

Philipp Lenssen [PersonRank 10]

16 years ago #

Absolutely agreed on your point 1. As for point 2, I think there will always be the stupid people believing wrong things, but they might believe it even more when they see the gov't is censoring sources. You can build all kinds of martyr and conspiracy theories out of it. When Germany in the 80s censored a punk band for its satirical "naughty" songs, the band became more popular than ever. We shouldn't grant Neo-Nazis this "martyr" status.

And as soon as you outlaw this or that, the Neo-Nazis simply change methodology or symbols. E.g. Neo-Nazis are outlawed to do the so-called Hitlergruss – Hitler greeting, raising your right arm with a flat hand – but they simply invented a similar, legal greeting with the same message (raised arm but just two fingers flat). They're also using codes like "88" for "HH" (Heil Hitler, the Nazi greeting.)

Of course, you have to check if the "property" they're speaking on is public. I don't want a Neo-Nazi shouting paroles in my room. But if they want to go demonstrate in the public, better than outlawing it is to simply organize a counter-demonstration, which is what mostly happens in Germany. If the Usenet group is unmoderated, then I don't understand why it's *Google's* job to remove it. Google doesn't own Usenet. They're supposed to let you research it. Now how am I going to research Neo-Nazi activity going on in Usenet using Google Groups when censorship is taking place? I won't be able to see it, possibly assuming that less is going on than really is.

Eric [PersonRank 0]

16 years ago #

I understand your point, I also remember once visiting Frankfurt where I saw a graffiti "Jude Raus" and the next day I saw the word Jude crossed out and instead the word Nazis was written.
I know what you're saying is true, I just think man-kind is still too stupid
to be trusted to make it's own judgment calls.

Google want's to be neutral – no hate msg.'s

I understand that this can also be bad for instance for pure
research, but nothing's perfect.
I think censorship is best until man-kind matures enough,
As for what should be censored – I say any hate msg.'s.

Roger Browne [PersonRank 10]

16 years ago #

Eric: as "all are equal" surely all should be allowed to read the same things?

If you split society into those who can read everything in order to decide what the others may read, it's another path towards distrust and hate.

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